I attended the rally in Victoria, BC mostly just to observe. Granted I was there for only 10 or 15 minutes, but during that entire time there was a higher representation of women in hijab than any other rally I've attended (and I attended many during my ultra-progressive days). They weren't simply present; they were at the centre and they were demanding that their children be left alone.
Women of colour in hijab -- such a clever disguise for Christian nationalist white supremacy!
Oh, there’s a heck of a lot the Christian nationalists and the conservative Muslims agree on, especially when it comes to gender norms and gender roles. I don’t think your comment about siding with women in hijabs is quite the slam dunk on progressives that you intended it to be.
I guess I find it interesting that a few months ago Tribe Left was so concerned about Islamophobia; now when the Muslim Association of Canada says something they disagree with, Tribe Left goes after "Christian nationalists" instead of the actual organisers.
So, just to clarify here… the protests were against “gender ideology” in schools, and by “gender ideology” we mean
“-Everyone has a gender identity which overrides biology
-if you don't feel like you fit, you might be born in the wrong body.
-and other nonsense..” ?
How is this different from proclaiming that transgender people don’t exist ie they’re ‘faking it’, or it’s ‘a choice’ ?
And how is that NOT hateful?
You’re saying a group of people should remove themselves (or be removed) from civil society because their existence is not legitimate. It’s pretty textbook fascism, isn’t it? Would you say this stuff about any other group? I don’t think so. Isn’t it the case that this might be the last group of people that can be openly vilified, with calls for ‘eradication’?
In the 20th Century, we saw the exact same rhetoric used against homosexuals, with the theocratic fascists finally, (thankfully) accepting defeat (in the west, at least). Clearly, they’ve now moved on to an even more marginalized and vulnerable group and it’s open season (with ‘protecting the children’ as the rhetorical shield).
It isn’t ‘guilty by association’, it’s a valid question: why do groups with objectively abhorrent values seem to be aligned with the ‘concerned parents’ ? It’s worth exploring at least, isn’t it?
Again, you're misrepresenting this protest. Are you doing it on purpose?
It's simply about the schools confusing children and teaching things that are unscientific and just plain false. That's how it's different. No one is trying to "eradicate" anyone, although there are many in the LGB crowd who suspect that the trans movement is trying to eradicate them. That's another story, isn't it?
I wasn't at this protest, but if was there, I wouldn't worry about the crazies who were sure to show up and that possibility certainly wouldn't change my opinion. But maybe it's like you said: Marxists have kids, so maybe people with "abhorrent values" also have kids that they care about.
It’s difficult for me to misrepresent the protests when I don’t know the true motivations or viewpoints of the various people who showed up. I’m trying to clarify your stance, as stated by you, which you’re apparently taking in support of the march. We can try again:
…the protests were against “gender ideology” in schools, and by “gender ideology” we mean:
“-Everyone has a gender identity which overrides biology
-if you don't feel like you fit, you might be born in the wrong body.
-and other nonsense..” ?
Those are your words, not from any other source. Are we to understand that this means you believe transgender people are merely putting on an act? That their existence is ‘nonsense’ ?
If so, wouldn't that be a hateful position to be taking towards an entire group?
I’m sure there were a diverse range of viewpoints represented among the ‘million march’ers, but your opinion, if my understanding is accurate, would place you on the more extreme end of the spectrum.
What's nonsense is the school teaching kids falsehoods. It's total BS. I didn't say the people are. That was you saying that. This is about what is taught in school. And no, it's not hate.
Do you believe a transwoman is a woman? Our Prime Minister says he does. If you don't, you're apparently a hater too. So please let's get back to some semblance reality here.
My stance is the same on this issue as on every other issue: do what you want, just don't hurt people while you're doing it. This program in schools hurts people because it is confusing and misleading and contains scientifically false information. If you think that's extreme, I'm not sure how to respond to that.
Michael Knowles is a popular right wing commentator (and faithful employee of your fossil fuel friends) who had the honor of speaking at CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference), the annual conference, he delivered a speech explicitly calling for the ‘eradication’ of transgenderism, to the raucous applause of the crowd. CPAC isn’t a fringe gathering, it’s probably the biggest event on the Republican/ Conservative calendar. Knowles (big supporter of the ‘March) isn’t a fringe personality, he’s a popular figure in conservative politics in America.
This is fascism on the most public stage with a brazenness that was hard to imagine even a few years ago.
Now, we can give the ‘concerned parents’ the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re unaware of the rising tide of anti-trans hate becoming louder in public life, but you have to see how these things are connected.
I don't know anything about Knowles. I did a quick search and it appears he explained it by differentiating between transgenderism and the transgender person on the basis that “transgenderism isn’t true.”
Like I said, no idea who this even is, but on the face of it, I'd probably agree that even though what people are experiencing is a real thing, it's not transgenderism in the sense than they've actually changed genders. So yeah, the people are totally valid and should be accepted (even if one doesn't accept their beliefs), but let's stop calling this something it's not and get back to reality.
Yes, I’m sure Knowles tried to walk it back somehow. You can understand now though, why the word ‘fascist’ comes up in this context - when you have a little man on stage in front of a very excited crowd announcing that they (the ‘strong men’, the unapologetically nationalist and hyper capitalist) will ‘eliminate’ an entire identity of (weaker, vulnerable, and historically persecuted) people, to ‘purify’ the society and bring back the nation’s former glory. I’m surprised you didn’t know how central the ‘trans issue’ has become in right wing politics.
This whole thing is so twisted. We hear so much about the rise in "transphobia" and comparatively little about why people are upset - namely about the incursion of men into women's spaces. And when that issue is brought up, it's because of "hate" and "transphobia", so it's a bit of a vicious circle. There's a real problem here. Is it wrong for people to be upset about it?
Now it's all about trans-rights. Of course these people have rights, but what about women's rights?
Left and right has nothing to do with this issue, although it's convenient to use that terminology - both sides do it, and both sides are wrong.
What’s needed here is a large dose of compassion and empathy. There should be some kind of program where the Kens of the world go and spend a day, or even a few hours, with a trans person. I honestly think that would solve a lot of what we’re dealing with here.
Or how about a program where parents can bring their children to simply meet a trans person, maybe they could read them a story or something, so the kids learn acceptance of differences from a young age and they don’t grow up to be Kens. Call it ‘drag queen story hour’. Has anyone thought of this?
I'm quite sure that I could go hang out or have a beer with any of these people and be perfectly fine with it - maybe even discuss our views on this issue in a friendly manner and yes, gain a better understanding of each other's positions. The reason I know this is because we have way more in common than we have differences, to the point that the differences are irrelevant.
None of this means I want the school teaching my kid things that are blatantly false.
What do you feel schools are teaching that is false?
Provide one example of a falsehood contained in a school curriculum somewhere in Canada, along with what you view to be the "truth". If you can't do that without several hours of research then most of your writing is in bad faith and is the exact reason you will gain no traction as a writer.
I await your prompt response with baited breath. Or will you delete this one too? Say what you will about Trudeau, the Canadian government does not censor Canadians with quite as much aplomb as you Ken. Unlike, for instance, the UK where the government can and regularly does compel private media not to print particular information.
In my opinion, it is blatantly false to tell kids that there are more than two genders simply because they feel a certain way. The SOGI system teaches that and yes, it is part of the school curriculum even though they don't call it a "curriculum".
I attended the rally in Victoria, BC mostly just to observe. Granted I was there for only 10 or 15 minutes, but during that entire time there was a higher representation of women in hijab than any other rally I've attended (and I attended many during my ultra-progressive days). They weren't simply present; they were at the centre and they were demanding that their children be left alone.
Women of colour in hijab -- such a clever disguise for Christian nationalist white supremacy!
Oh, there’s a heck of a lot the Christian nationalists and the conservative Muslims agree on, especially when it comes to gender norms and gender roles. I don’t think your comment about siding with women in hijabs is quite the slam dunk on progressives that you intended it to be.
Yeah, that's a fair point.
I guess I find it interesting that a few months ago Tribe Left was so concerned about Islamophobia; now when the Muslim Association of Canada says something they disagree with, Tribe Left goes after "Christian nationalists" instead of the actual organisers.
Hey Ken why are you censoring my comments? Are you a fascist?
You're just rehashing Hitler's lebensborn program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn
Can't even come up with your own ideas! Sad... 😢
So, just to clarify here… the protests were against “gender ideology” in schools, and by “gender ideology” we mean
“-Everyone has a gender identity which overrides biology
-if you don't feel like you fit, you might be born in the wrong body.
-and other nonsense..” ?
How is this different from proclaiming that transgender people don’t exist ie they’re ‘faking it’, or it’s ‘a choice’ ?
And how is that NOT hateful?
You’re saying a group of people should remove themselves (or be removed) from civil society because their existence is not legitimate. It’s pretty textbook fascism, isn’t it? Would you say this stuff about any other group? I don’t think so. Isn’t it the case that this might be the last group of people that can be openly vilified, with calls for ‘eradication’?
In the 20th Century, we saw the exact same rhetoric used against homosexuals, with the theocratic fascists finally, (thankfully) accepting defeat (in the west, at least). Clearly, they’ve now moved on to an even more marginalized and vulnerable group and it’s open season (with ‘protecting the children’ as the rhetorical shield).
It isn’t ‘guilty by association’, it’s a valid question: why do groups with objectively abhorrent values seem to be aligned with the ‘concerned parents’ ? It’s worth exploring at least, isn’t it?
Again, you're misrepresenting this protest. Are you doing it on purpose?
It's simply about the schools confusing children and teaching things that are unscientific and just plain false. That's how it's different. No one is trying to "eradicate" anyone, although there are many in the LGB crowd who suspect that the trans movement is trying to eradicate them. That's another story, isn't it?
I wasn't at this protest, but if was there, I wouldn't worry about the crazies who were sure to show up and that possibility certainly wouldn't change my opinion. But maybe it's like you said: Marxists have kids, so maybe people with "abhorrent values" also have kids that they care about.
Are you insinuating that Marxists hold ‘abhorrent values’ ? How so?
Not at all, just that any person with kids would have a right to feel this way.
It’s difficult for me to misrepresent the protests when I don’t know the true motivations or viewpoints of the various people who showed up. I’m trying to clarify your stance, as stated by you, which you’re apparently taking in support of the march. We can try again:
…the protests were against “gender ideology” in schools, and by “gender ideology” we mean:
“-Everyone has a gender identity which overrides biology
-if you don't feel like you fit, you might be born in the wrong body.
-and other nonsense..” ?
Those are your words, not from any other source. Are we to understand that this means you believe transgender people are merely putting on an act? That their existence is ‘nonsense’ ?
If so, wouldn't that be a hateful position to be taking towards an entire group?
I’m sure there were a diverse range of viewpoints represented among the ‘million march’ers, but your opinion, if my understanding is accurate, would place you on the more extreme end of the spectrum.
What's nonsense is the school teaching kids falsehoods. It's total BS. I didn't say the people are. That was you saying that. This is about what is taught in school. And no, it's not hate.
Do you believe a transwoman is a woman? Our Prime Minister says he does. If you don't, you're apparently a hater too. So please let's get back to some semblance reality here.
My stance is the same on this issue as on every other issue: do what you want, just don't hurt people while you're doing it. This program in schools hurts people because it is confusing and misleading and contains scientifically false information. If you think that's extreme, I'm not sure how to respond to that.
You said “nobody’s trying to eradicate anyone”...
Michael Knowles is a popular right wing commentator (and faithful employee of your fossil fuel friends) who had the honor of speaking at CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference), the annual conference, he delivered a speech explicitly calling for the ‘eradication’ of transgenderism, to the raucous applause of the crowd. CPAC isn’t a fringe gathering, it’s probably the biggest event on the Republican/ Conservative calendar. Knowles (big supporter of the ‘March) isn’t a fringe personality, he’s a popular figure in conservative politics in America.
This is fascism on the most public stage with a brazenness that was hard to imagine even a few years ago.
Now, we can give the ‘concerned parents’ the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re unaware of the rising tide of anti-trans hate becoming louder in public life, but you have to see how these things are connected.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cpac-speaker-transgender-people-eradicated-1234690924/
I don't know anything about Knowles. I did a quick search and it appears he explained it by differentiating between transgenderism and the transgender person on the basis that “transgenderism isn’t true.”
Like I said, no idea who this even is, but on the face of it, I'd probably agree that even though what people are experiencing is a real thing, it's not transgenderism in the sense than they've actually changed genders. So yeah, the people are totally valid and should be accepted (even if one doesn't accept their beliefs), but let's stop calling this something it's not and get back to reality.
Yes, I’m sure Knowles tried to walk it back somehow. You can understand now though, why the word ‘fascist’ comes up in this context - when you have a little man on stage in front of a very excited crowd announcing that they (the ‘strong men’, the unapologetically nationalist and hyper capitalist) will ‘eliminate’ an entire identity of (weaker, vulnerable, and historically persecuted) people, to ‘purify’ the society and bring back the nation’s former glory. I’m surprised you didn’t know how central the ‘trans issue’ has become in right wing politics.
This whole thing is so twisted. We hear so much about the rise in "transphobia" and comparatively little about why people are upset - namely about the incursion of men into women's spaces. And when that issue is brought up, it's because of "hate" and "transphobia", so it's a bit of a vicious circle. There's a real problem here. Is it wrong for people to be upset about it?
Now it's all about trans-rights. Of course these people have rights, but what about women's rights?
Left and right has nothing to do with this issue, although it's convenient to use that terminology - both sides do it, and both sides are wrong.
You're literally incapable of accepting the prospect that you might be wrong. Why respond when every response is in bad faith?
What’s needed here is a large dose of compassion and empathy. There should be some kind of program where the Kens of the world go and spend a day, or even a few hours, with a trans person. I honestly think that would solve a lot of what we’re dealing with here.
Or how about a program where parents can bring their children to simply meet a trans person, maybe they could read them a story or something, so the kids learn acceptance of differences from a young age and they don’t grow up to be Kens. Call it ‘drag queen story hour’. Has anyone thought of this?
I'm quite sure that I could go hang out or have a beer with any of these people and be perfectly fine with it - maybe even discuss our views on this issue in a friendly manner and yes, gain a better understanding of each other's positions. The reason I know this is because we have way more in common than we have differences, to the point that the differences are irrelevant.
None of this means I want the school teaching my kid things that are blatantly false.
What do you feel schools are teaching that is false?
Provide one example of a falsehood contained in a school curriculum somewhere in Canada, along with what you view to be the "truth". If you can't do that without several hours of research then most of your writing is in bad faith and is the exact reason you will gain no traction as a writer.
I await your prompt response with baited breath. Or will you delete this one too? Say what you will about Trudeau, the Canadian government does not censor Canadians with quite as much aplomb as you Ken. Unlike, for instance, the UK where the government can and regularly does compel private media not to print particular information.
Regards.
In my opinion, it is blatantly false to tell kids that there are more than two genders simply because they feel a certain way. The SOGI system teaches that and yes, it is part of the school curriculum even though they don't call it a "curriculum".