Your interpretation of the definition of fascism is so laughably uncharitable as to make the rest of your thinking, if it can be so-called, a waste of the reader's time.
For example, you conflate general progressive identity politics with the fascist conception of the supremacy of a single race. This is called ethnofascism and is a distinct feature of Hitler's Germany, Hirohito's Japan, and to some lesser extent Mussolini's Italy.
Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco may be helpful for you to understand just how foolish your comparison here really is.
Conservatives are not well served by the repeated abuse of the fallacy of misleading vividness, which is essentially all this piece boils down to once the creative writing is stripped away to reveal the inner (il)logic.
I don't recall the last time a Canadian was murdered in the streets by brownshirts or sent to the gas chambers for disputing postmodernist ideologies. You'll note that you are very critical of the government and yet you remain free and, indeed, alive. That would not be possible in Imperial Japan, the Third Reich, or Mussolini's Italy.
You don't seem to understand why I've used the term "charitable": I'm not saying you should be charitable toward fascists, but rather that you should be charitable in restating any argument if you want to be taken seriously as a writer. This is the crux of good philosophical logic and rhetoric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
Nobody will take you seriously when you go to such lengths to present opposing arguments in such an uncharitable fashion.
I did note that the usage of the word "fascist" in this part of the world today is rarely referring to government. The government we currently have, while not ideal is definitely not fascist. Obviously this article is not about government either. Imagine though, if the people running these DEI meetings were part of government. It's already scary enough that they have the support of government. Yes, we are relatively free here, but do you really think that just happened by itself? The only reason we have any amount of freedom here at all is because normal people stand up from time to time and say, "WHOA - ENOUGH!" It certainly isn't the natural state of things.
Fascism has little to do with government and everything to do with ideology. Those three fascist leaders were fascist before they became a members of government (and then dispensed with that government entirely).
Just read it. It's a good read and a very interesting take. I think it applies very well to the Wokesters here. It also makes the point that the definition of fascism isn't always so clear:
"Fascism was a fuzzy totalitarianism, a collage of different philosophical and political ideas, a beehive of contradictions."
And:
"But the fascist game can be played in many forms, and the name of the game does not change."
Most of the accepted definitions call it a political ideology, but I agree with Eco - the political aspect arises when these people attain power. This is the whole point of "Fascism With a Smile" - to not allow that to happen.
Eco also defines fascism as "irrationalism". This applies perfectly to the current situation.
He also states, "For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason," and "racist by definition".
I think the way Eco approaches it makes sense (and it's kind of how I have understood it apart from government), but at the end of the day, his definition here is still just another one of many descriptions of fascism.
So while Woke and DEI may not fit quite so neatly into any one catagory of fascism, it has enough of the elements to become its own form.
You picked the most ambiguous platitudes from Ur-Fascism and skipped the 12 or 13 point definition alongside the main thesis of Eco's piece?
As they say, if all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.
Tell me, what material difference is there between the "wokesters'" project to label all wrong think fascism and your project to label all "wokethink" the same? It seems you've become the other side of the same coin, with your dogmatic adherence to ideology. You're not even attempting to have a conversation with me or Ned: merely talking past us. Soapboxing, if you will.
White folks are so used to being at the top of the pile with everybody bowing to our ‘natural god-given superiority’, that when the pendulum swings back even a millimeter, and we’re told sit the f**k down and listen for a minute, it’s tantamount to fascism (said without a shred of irony). It is the greatest crime that’s ever been penetrated. It’s the end of civilization. Literally.
We see something similar in very spoiled children when they’re told ‘no’ for the first time.
This story about the Zoom call is perfect for the right, it’s like a wet dream, and a distillation of the victimhood felt. Listen to any Trump speech and it’s the exact same thing. They bathe in it.
This Zoom call incident is merely the expected culmination of where this is headed. I mean, is it really that surprising? Obviously "the right" would seize on this and say I TOLD YOU SO! Because, guess what? They actually did. Here's the kicker - it's not just "the right" who think this way. It's most of the left too. It's just that those on the right have less to lose by calling it out. If you're on the left and show any dissent, you're effectively ousted from your own party.
And do you really believe there are no people of colour who are against this BS? If you do, then you're proof of how well the propaganda machine works. So no, it's not "white fragility".
By the way, Eco provides a 12 or 13 point definition of fascism as someone who was raised under Mussolini. You can Google Ur-Fascism, first link should provide you an online copy. It's quite short, 20 minute read at most.
There was this big hoo-hah around 80 years back where some fascists tried to take over the entire world by force and had to be opposed by a global anti-fascist alliance. The whole thing ended with around 50 million people dead. The fascists in Europe had systematically exterminated millions of people in purpose-built human killing factories, and the ones in Asia had done even worse. Since that ended, fascism has popped up a few times and is once again threatening Europe internally (Poland, Hungary, Italy, and even France) and externally, with Ukraine currently feeling the brunt. Recently they even tried to overthrow the US government, (though that’s an ongoing situation).
Do you really think someone being bullied by a narcissist on a Zoom call is the same thing?
Just about everyone would agree that this woman is a psycho, and anyone who’s enabling her is negligent at best, but even then I can think of far worse cases of workplace negligence than this one.
Fascism is a very real thing, is a persistent threat in the world, and is something we need to be vigilant against or else it will kill millions again.
'Wokism' seems like nothing more than culture-war silliness, and if you’re finding it hard to differentiate between that and fascism, then I strongly suggest spending less time online.
The problem is that this isn't just an isolated incident. Yes, it's an extreme example, but this has become (what's the word?) SYSTEMIC. It's created a culture of fear and had a chilling effect on any kind of dissent. It's supported by government, universities, huge corporations, and school systems.
You could call it "totalitarianism" if you want (which it is), but that seems more applicable to a system of government. Fascism is more of an ideology that can be applied in the absence of government so I think it fits in this case.
One of my main criticism of this woke movement is how they repurpose words to suit their agenda (like all the new ways one can be racist), so I hear what you're saying about using the word fascism to describe this. The fact is, the ideas are exactly the same as what undergirds fascism. The only difference is that these people are not in government - yet.
It took me five minutes to find these from all over the US and Canada. A couple of them I already knew about, but it seems every week there's more.
There's a reason companies are dropping DEI now. And there's a reason state governments are clamping down on it - and it's not just because it's a waste of money, or because Republicans are bigoted morons, although at least the first one is true.
I gave them all a read. Some interesting ideas, but mostly just the same 'social justice warrior' bashing we've been hearing for many years now. One of the articles was from the Daily Caller, not a good source if you're trying to present a rational argument.
Nowhere in any of those sources was there mention of violence, or anything tenuous like a related suicide, so I think we can conclude that this was indeed an isolated incident.
It’s not an isolated incident? Really? It seems pretty isolated. I’m also confident there’s more complexity to this particular tragedy than is being presented (there always is).
I’m amusing myself at the thought of Adolf Hitler giving one of his vitriolic speeches at a rally, but instead of Jews, he’s going on about how “deep-rooted patriarchies and colonialism have enshrined systemic oppression which manifests in the racist, misogynistic and homophobic systems we need to confront both internally and externally Deutschland wieder großartig machen !!!!” Hahaha.
Fascism uses violence to further a nationalistic , anti-democratic system of rigid hierarchy, exterminating the ‘inferior’ to solidify the power of the chosen ‘superior’ group. It’s a real thing, and people are being bombed, shot and bludgeoned to death right now by fascists. It is NOT annoying blue haired lesbian ‘activists’ telling you that you’re a racist.
In a bizarre coincidence however, the people currently screaming the loudest about how ‘wokeism’ is bad, are very often the same voices who quite openly advocate for ACTUAL fascism. Weird
Well, it's not an isolated incident at all, regardless of how it "seems" to you. You can check out the links I posted there if you want, but I'm not going to read them to you. Those examples are strictly related to DEI, not even just "wokeness" in general - there are even more incidents if you include that. People's idiocy is one thing, but DEI is worse because it's a system. I don't think it started out a bad thing. I'm sure the intentions were good, but it's completely off the rails now.
The reason this case is so shocking is because a man died. Sure, he died by his own hand for reasons we’ll never fully understand, but the implication by you and others is that he was essentially bullied to death by the DEI fascists. So, to say that it’s ‘not an isolated incident’ implies that others are dying at the hands of these fascists, doesn’t it?
There’s a lot of nuance to this issue that’s just flat-out ignored. There’s the constant claim that DEI is actually racist, but no examples? We’re told how the ‘white’ children (or employees) are taught to hate themselves or that they’re inferior. Really? How? If the DEI indoctrination is so horrible, can we see some examples? I don’t mean examples of how certain proponents conduct themselves, or certain protestors take their demonstrations too far, I mean the supposed ideology that’s so ‘toxic’. It’s awfully reminiscent of the whole CRT debate, which basically came down to some insane parents not wanting history taught to their kids.
The links I posted were specifically about the ideology that informs DEI. Obviously the case in question here was extreme. I'm not aware of any other deaths, but so what? Does it really need to come to that for this to be taken seriously? These other incidents need to be evaluated on their own, without comparing them to the one really extreme case. And remember, these cases are the tip of the iceberg.
Your interpretation of the definition of fascism is so laughably uncharitable as to make the rest of your thinking, if it can be so-called, a waste of the reader's time.
For example, you conflate general progressive identity politics with the fascist conception of the supremacy of a single race. This is called ethnofascism and is a distinct feature of Hitler's Germany, Hirohito's Japan, and to some lesser extent Mussolini's Italy.
Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco may be helpful for you to understand just how foolish your comparison here really is.
Conservatives are not well served by the repeated abuse of the fallacy of misleading vividness, which is essentially all this piece boils down to once the creative writing is stripped away to reveal the inner (il)logic.
Identity politics is one thing. The way the woke agenda handles itself is something altogether different.
I'd love to hear your "charitable" definition of fascism, Symon
I don't recall the last time a Canadian was murdered in the streets by brownshirts or sent to the gas chambers for disputing postmodernist ideologies. You'll note that you are very critical of the government and yet you remain free and, indeed, alive. That would not be possible in Imperial Japan, the Third Reich, or Mussolini's Italy.
You don't seem to understand why I've used the term "charitable": I'm not saying you should be charitable toward fascists, but rather that you should be charitable in restating any argument if you want to be taken seriously as a writer. This is the crux of good philosophical logic and rhetoric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
Nobody will take you seriously when you go to such lengths to present opposing arguments in such an uncharitable fashion.
I did note that the usage of the word "fascist" in this part of the world today is rarely referring to government. The government we currently have, while not ideal is definitely not fascist. Obviously this article is not about government either. Imagine though, if the people running these DEI meetings were part of government. It's already scary enough that they have the support of government. Yes, we are relatively free here, but do you really think that just happened by itself? The only reason we have any amount of freedom here at all is because normal people stand up from time to time and say, "WHOA - ENOUGH!" It certainly isn't the natural state of things.
https://open.substack.com/pub/kenhiebert/p/the-natural-state-of-everything?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=15ke9e
Fascism has little to do with government and everything to do with ideology. Those three fascist leaders were fascist before they became a members of government (and then dispensed with that government entirely).
Read Ur-Fascism.
Just read it. It's a good read and a very interesting take. I think it applies very well to the Wokesters here. It also makes the point that the definition of fascism isn't always so clear:
"Fascism was a fuzzy totalitarianism, a collage of different philosophical and political ideas, a beehive of contradictions."
And:
"But the fascist game can be played in many forms, and the name of the game does not change."
Most of the accepted definitions call it a political ideology, but I agree with Eco - the political aspect arises when these people attain power. This is the whole point of "Fascism With a Smile" - to not allow that to happen.
Eco also defines fascism as "irrationalism". This applies perfectly to the current situation.
He also states, "For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason," and "racist by definition".
I think the way Eco approaches it makes sense (and it's kind of how I have understood it apart from government), but at the end of the day, his definition here is still just another one of many descriptions of fascism.
So while Woke and DEI may not fit quite so neatly into any one catagory of fascism, it has enough of the elements to become its own form.
You picked the most ambiguous platitudes from Ur-Fascism and skipped the 12 or 13 point definition alongside the main thesis of Eco's piece?
As they say, if all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.
Tell me, what material difference is there between the "wokesters'" project to label all wrong think fascism and your project to label all "wokethink" the same? It seems you've become the other side of the same coin, with your dogmatic adherence to ideology. You're not even attempting to have a conversation with me or Ned: merely talking past us. Soapboxing, if you will.
I think it mostly comes down to victimhood.
White folks are so used to being at the top of the pile with everybody bowing to our ‘natural god-given superiority’, that when the pendulum swings back even a millimeter, and we’re told sit the f**k down and listen for a minute, it’s tantamount to fascism (said without a shred of irony). It is the greatest crime that’s ever been penetrated. It’s the end of civilization. Literally.
We see something similar in very spoiled children when they’re told ‘no’ for the first time.
This story about the Zoom call is perfect for the right, it’s like a wet dream, and a distillation of the victimhood felt. Listen to any Trump speech and it’s the exact same thing. They bathe in it.
This Zoom call incident is merely the expected culmination of where this is headed. I mean, is it really that surprising? Obviously "the right" would seize on this and say I TOLD YOU SO! Because, guess what? They actually did. Here's the kicker - it's not just "the right" who think this way. It's most of the left too. It's just that those on the right have less to lose by calling it out. If you're on the left and show any dissent, you're effectively ousted from your own party.
And do you really believe there are no people of colour who are against this BS? If you do, then you're proof of how well the propaganda machine works. So no, it's not "white fragility".
By the way, Eco provides a 12 or 13 point definition of fascism as someone who was raised under Mussolini. You can Google Ur-Fascism, first link should provide you an online copy. It's quite short, 20 minute read at most.
I dunno man… ‘wokism’ is fascism?
There was this big hoo-hah around 80 years back where some fascists tried to take over the entire world by force and had to be opposed by a global anti-fascist alliance. The whole thing ended with around 50 million people dead. The fascists in Europe had systematically exterminated millions of people in purpose-built human killing factories, and the ones in Asia had done even worse. Since that ended, fascism has popped up a few times and is once again threatening Europe internally (Poland, Hungary, Italy, and even France) and externally, with Ukraine currently feeling the brunt. Recently they even tried to overthrow the US government, (though that’s an ongoing situation).
Do you really think someone being bullied by a narcissist on a Zoom call is the same thing?
Just about everyone would agree that this woman is a psycho, and anyone who’s enabling her is negligent at best, but even then I can think of far worse cases of workplace negligence than this one.
Fascism is a very real thing, is a persistent threat in the world, and is something we need to be vigilant against or else it will kill millions again.
'Wokism' seems like nothing more than culture-war silliness, and if you’re finding it hard to differentiate between that and fascism, then I strongly suggest spending less time online.
The problem is that this isn't just an isolated incident. Yes, it's an extreme example, but this has become (what's the word?) SYSTEMIC. It's created a culture of fear and had a chilling effect on any kind of dissent. It's supported by government, universities, huge corporations, and school systems.
You could call it "totalitarianism" if you want (which it is), but that seems more applicable to a system of government. Fascism is more of an ideology that can be applied in the absence of government so I think it fits in this case.
One of my main criticism of this woke movement is how they repurpose words to suit their agenda (like all the new ways one can be racist), so I hear what you're saying about using the word fascism to describe this. The fact is, the ideas are exactly the same as what undergirds fascism. The only difference is that these people are not in government - yet.
It is an isolated incident. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?
Puh-lease, man. How much reading do want to do?
It took me five minutes to find these from all over the US and Canada. A couple of them I already knew about, but it seems every week there's more.
There's a reason companies are dropping DEI now. And there's a reason state governments are clamping down on it - and it's not just because it's a waste of money, or because Republicans are bigoted morons, although at least the first one is true.
https://www.newsweek.com/toxicity-dei-tale-newton-massachusetts-opinion-1795907
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/definitions-dei-nice-sounding-words-toxic-outcomes-shannon
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/tirien-steinbach-doesnt-get-to-decide-if-the-juice-is-worth-the-squeeze/
https://dailycaller.com/2023/05/05/med-school-anti-woke-speech-canceled/
https://compactmag.com/article/a-black-dei-director-canceled-by-dei
Not sure what any of these links are.
That's because you have to read them...
You sent me a bunch of links about stuff happening in another country. I wonder why that is...
I gave them all a read. Some interesting ideas, but mostly just the same 'social justice warrior' bashing we've been hearing for many years now. One of the articles was from the Daily Caller, not a good source if you're trying to present a rational argument.
Nowhere in any of those sources was there mention of violence, or anything tenuous like a related suicide, so I think we can conclude that this was indeed an isolated incident.
It’s not an isolated incident? Really? It seems pretty isolated. I’m also confident there’s more complexity to this particular tragedy than is being presented (there always is).
I’m amusing myself at the thought of Adolf Hitler giving one of his vitriolic speeches at a rally, but instead of Jews, he’s going on about how “deep-rooted patriarchies and colonialism have enshrined systemic oppression which manifests in the racist, misogynistic and homophobic systems we need to confront both internally and externally Deutschland wieder großartig machen !!!!” Hahaha.
Fascism uses violence to further a nationalistic , anti-democratic system of rigid hierarchy, exterminating the ‘inferior’ to solidify the power of the chosen ‘superior’ group. It’s a real thing, and people are being bombed, shot and bludgeoned to death right now by fascists. It is NOT annoying blue haired lesbian ‘activists’ telling you that you’re a racist.
In a bizarre coincidence however, the people currently screaming the loudest about how ‘wokeism’ is bad, are very often the same voices who quite openly advocate for ACTUAL fascism. Weird
Well, it's not an isolated incident at all, regardless of how it "seems" to you. You can check out the links I posted there if you want, but I'm not going to read them to you. Those examples are strictly related to DEI, not even just "wokeness" in general - there are even more incidents if you include that. People's idiocy is one thing, but DEI is worse because it's a system. I don't think it started out a bad thing. I'm sure the intentions were good, but it's completely off the rails now.
The reason this case is so shocking is because a man died. Sure, he died by his own hand for reasons we’ll never fully understand, but the implication by you and others is that he was essentially bullied to death by the DEI fascists. So, to say that it’s ‘not an isolated incident’ implies that others are dying at the hands of these fascists, doesn’t it?
There’s a lot of nuance to this issue that’s just flat-out ignored. There’s the constant claim that DEI is actually racist, but no examples? We’re told how the ‘white’ children (or employees) are taught to hate themselves or that they’re inferior. Really? How? If the DEI indoctrination is so horrible, can we see some examples? I don’t mean examples of how certain proponents conduct themselves, or certain protestors take their demonstrations too far, I mean the supposed ideology that’s so ‘toxic’. It’s awfully reminiscent of the whole CRT debate, which basically came down to some insane parents not wanting history taught to their kids.
The links I posted were specifically about the ideology that informs DEI. Obviously the case in question here was extreme. I'm not aware of any other deaths, but so what? Does it really need to come to that for this to be taken seriously? These other incidents need to be evaluated on their own, without comparing them to the one really extreme case. And remember, these cases are the tip of the iceberg.
Those cases are not relevant to Canada unless they occur in Canada. Try again.
Those incidents didn't occur in Canada...